[00:00] Bryan Hyde: Once again, we welcome you to the Health Policy Podcast. I'm Brian Hyde, and today we're happy to welcome Ross Marchand. Ross is Executive Director of the Taxpayers Protection Alliance. And let's first of all talk a little bit about you, Ross. This is not your first time on the program, but for those meeting you for the first time, take a moment to tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. [00:21] Ross Marchand: Well, first of all, Brian, great to be back on your podcast. I am the Executive Director of the Taxpayers Protection Alliance. We are a nonpartisan nonprofit dedicated Dedicated to holding bureaucrats accountable and dedicating and analyzing all of the ways that the government is raising costs on taxpayers and consumers. [00:44] Bryan Hyde: And it's important somebody does that because, as people are about to learn, there's really no place considered off-limits where, um, you know, there aren't— can I just put it this way— regulatory blessings to shower upon us, you know? Looking out for us, of course. [00:59] Ross Marchand: Yeah, everything from, uh, showers to appliances, um, to cooking pans to the Postal Service and everything in between. [01:09] Bryan Hyde: Well, and, and specifically, I guess today we're going to be talking about cookware. And, uh, you know, I've heard controversy from time to time— Teflon this, nonstick that. Oh, there might be a recall. But, um, I understand Washington State is actually going one step further. They're taking a very proactive approach to concerns over cookware. What's, what's happening there? [01:29] Ross Marchand: That's right. Millions of people across Washington and across the country, vast majority of households, they use Teflon. They use nonstick to make it easier for them to cook. I know it's a crazy concept. And the cost of cookware has declined by so much since the early '60s when this new technology— well, new Not so new now, but back in the '60s when this new technology came out. And now bureaucrats are trying to restrict it with an eye towards banning it, unfortunately. [02:00] Bryan Hyde: So, um, where— how broad does this— how, how big of a slice of cookware does this encompass? I'm guessing most people don't check their pans carefully. You know, uh, we need a pan, you know, you grab something. You know, if you're feeling fancy, go to, you know, a little higher-end store, but How many people really stop and think about what their pans are made out of before they buy cookware? [02:23] Ross Marchand: Not many. I know this is really shocking, Brian, but a lot of people are practical-minded, and they want a pan where the food won't stick to the bottom. They get nonstick. Teflon is, of course, a very attractive and cost-effective option in that regard. The price has gone way down. In inflation-adjusted terms, it's gone down from $70 to around $25 for that average nonstick pan. And unfortunately, bureaucrats just have this in their crosshairs and they're targeting this and they're saying that it's not safe, that it has environmental impacts, and it's just not the case. And one pattern that we notice when it comes to these regulations, it doesn't matter what state, it could be a federal regulation. First, they have all of these reporting requirements. They try to bury everything in just a cascade, an avalanche of paperwork. And then come the outright bans when these things become cost prohibitive. [03:25] Bryan Hyde: Interesting. And yet part of those costs are the compliance costs, you know, of trying to keep up with everything that's being required. So I'm going to ask you, how safe is Teflon? Or what's the acronym we often hear Is it PTFE? [03:43] Ross Marchand: PTFE, yeah. And, you know, the popularly used way of referring to it is Teflon. And, you know, look, so this— I would call it technology, right? This technology has come a long way. And what was the safety profile back 70 or 80 years ago for cooking supplies? It was far less safe than it is today. But of course, you know, for a certain group of environmentally minded people, it's very easy to take things too far and to find hazards In everything, there's no evidence of adverse health impacts. This ordinary use of Teflon products, but regardless, you have these zealots, and not only in Washington but across the country, and they're trying to make these products extraordinarily difficult, and they're trying to make it so the only alternatives that are available to customers—I mean, they're just going to be way, way more expensive, and the products are not going to be as good, and households are going to have to replace their pans every two months. for every 3 months, and costs are just out of control. [04:49] Bryan Hyde: So, um, I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly, Ross. It's, it's not the Teflon itself, uh, it's not like, well, you know, you guys are cooking on some kind of, you know, poison here, or, you know, some, some kind of mineral that's going to poison you if you, if you touch it. Um, it's safe stuff. But what I'm just trying to see, where is the justification? Is it— it seems like there's not a single product that I see ordered into my home that doesn't include a label that somewhere says the state of California has settlement that this thing causes cancer. And to me, that seems like a little bit of overreach. Kind of— is it kind of the same here in terms of, is it really that dangerous? If it was that dangerous, wouldn't it be addressed at other levels of regulation? [05:31] Ross Marchand: Yeah. And you see these labels up the wazoo, mainly influenced by California. Pretty much all these things come from California, right? All the ideas to restrict and ban these products, where they come from ultimately, from California. Washington, as you might imagine, is not far from that sphere of influence. The controversy, unfortunately, the manufactured controversy comes from that nonstick coating that is on the pans. That is where allegedly the problem is. But the safety studies, the health studies that are submitted, they're just not passing muster. The overwhelming array of evidence is that these products are safe for households, and 80% of households across the country use these products, and they've all benefited tremendously without paying the price to their health. But if these products are heavily restricted, as they are now, or banned, which they might be starting around 2028, I mean, customers across the state and across the country are going to feel the impact. [06:38] Bryan Hyde: So I have to ask, are you suggesting that this may be the rage right now for Washington legislators, Washington state legislators? But this, as goes Washington, is the rest of the country likely to follow? I mean, we've seen that with some other things like kitchen appliances. You know what, you can't have the gas stove or that anymore. Is Washington leading out here? [06:59] Ross Marchand: Yes, absolutely. And you see, you know, alongside Washington, you have Maine, you have Minnesota, of course, Everything always comes back to California. And, you know, you see with these restrictions, you see different justifications. With Teflon, it has to do with health and environmental concerns, mainly with things like appliances. Sometimes it has to do with health impacts. Other times it has to do with energy efficiency. But these justifications, they very rarely— excuse my pun here— they very rarely pan out. [07:32] Bryan Hyde: Mm-hmm. [07:32] Ross Marchand: And the truth of the matter is, these products are more often than not completely safe and they're cost effective. And at a time when the price of everything is going up and we don't want to add this to that category where customers are in the position where they say, oh, now I have to replace my pan, I have to replace all of my appliances on top of the 3-plus percent inflation on everything else. You know, it's, it's deeply unfair and it's unsustainable to hike the prices on all of these products. [08:03] Bryan Hyde: No, I think you're making the case for a very real problem here. I just worry that people don't recognize it till, you know, it's biting them in the pocketbook. Case in point, you had mentioned this earlier, you know, we sometimes wonder with all the regulation that we get, why is it so hard to get laundry detergent that actually cleans your clothes? And it comes back to, well, you know, we had to regulate phosphates and, you know, make sure that we're not releasing those into the land and it's gonna cause damage and so forth. You know, this is not to suggest, well, we should just throw caution to the wind with pollution, but it was such a minuscule impact it was having, yet it took away one of the things that actually made clothes clean when you threw them in the washing machine. And it just seems like there's a price that we pay. You know, the progress of, hey, look, somebody's keeping us safe, versus, but now nothing works. Seems like there's a real trade-off here. But unfortunately, we get to bear the burden of that, maybe not the regulators as much. [09:03] Ross Marchand: Yeah. And look, every policy has trade-offs, and you could easily be on the other side of the spectrum. And America used to be in that place where there were no environmental restrictions. And as a result, I mean, things were not only costly because everything, all these environmental claims and safety claims were litigated in the courts, but also you had things like waterways were on fire. So you don't want that. But on the other hand, you don't want overregulation. And that's absolutely what we're seeing now. You have these out-of-control bureaucrats. And frankly, they have too much time on their hands. And they think, how can we make things more expensive? And how can we invent these safety concerns and use them to make it really difficult to get products that we don't like? [09:49] Bryan Hyde: So is there any recourse for consumers that— I prefer my Teflon pans, and I'll go to bat for them. Is there any way to push back on that? Or are these the things that once they're written into law, it's like, well, good luck getting rid of it? [10:06] Ross Marchand: Well, what we're looking at here in the case of Washington is a multi-phase approach. For now, it's mainly disclosure reporting requirements. What you see there with disclosure reporting is increased costs. Those manufacturing costs get added to the final costs of the pan in this case, passed along to customers. But what may happen starting in 2028 is you might see that morph into a ban. So there's still time for taxpayers and customers to sound the alarm and say, you know, this is unfair and it's going in the wrong direction and it's increasing prices on products that we like and that make our lives easier and then what we rely on. So there is still time because of this multi-phase approach. But it is— let me be clear, it's going in the wrong direction. [10:55] Bryan Hyde: And where, where can people apply their efforts to best make them felt? [11:00] Ross Marchand: Well, I think it's very important to understand this issue because people see the acronyms of the PTFE and PFAS, and it's easy to look at that, right? And your eyes just kind of like glaze over and say, what do all these things mean? You know, this, this is not something that I can understand. You know, this is, this is above my pay grade, but it's really important to understand, you know, it's Teflon, it's nonstick, you know, cooking. products, and this impacts all of us. So I think it's really important for people to do their homework and to speak out and say these policies are unreasonable and they're going to increase costs on all of us. [11:37] Bryan Hyde: And, and this is probably as good a time as any to, uh, point out what your organization, you know, Taxpayer Protection Alliance, um, does in terms of not just this but other, other areas of, of policy where that line starts to get a little bit blurred between, oh, they're protecting us versus Yeah, exactly. [11:59] Ross Marchand: We see this every day, and TPA deals with a wide variety of issues, and we see the same pattern over and over again. You can have very different policy issues on the surface, but the bureaucrats, they have this increase costs and ban mentality time and time again. What TPA will do, we'll go into states, and we'll look across the country, and we'll identify these really problematic efforts to make life more difficult for taxpayers and customers. And we will fight these proposals tooth and nail. [12:30] Bryan Hyde: Now, of course, they never sell them under the pretense that they're going to make our lives more difficult, right? They're doing us a huge favor for which we should be eternally thankful. But, you know, thank goodness for, you know, organizations like yours and people who are willing to crunch the numbers and actually crunch the costs and where necessary, hold, you know, these regulators accountable. Um, you know, lest we find ourselves, uh, stifled in being able to actually enjoy life. [12:57] Ross Marchand: Exactly. And we will continue to pay very close attention to this issue and similar issues where, you know, bureaucrats, they have good intentions. I don't want to question their intentions, and they really think they're doing a good and noble thing, but unintended consequences are all over the place, and this is no exception. [13:17] Bryan Hyde: And it seems like when, you know, I'm just, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but when people hear politicians speak, especially when they're doing political talk, promises, oh, this is what I'm gonna do for you, the unintended consequences are never considered. It's only, but this is what my policy aims to do, and here's what's gonna happen. And this is where I guess you can separate the— [13:39] Ross Marchand: Separate. [13:40] Bryan Hyde: Not just politicians, but thinkers and economists and people who are involved. The ones who are smarter are gonna also look at what else might this do? In other words, what's not just seen, but what else could come because of it before they go enacting a particular piece of policy? [13:55] Ross Marchand: Exactly. And a big part of the problem is these policymakers, they have their blinders on and they're only looking, oh yeah, but this only impacts these pans that have this specific kind of chemical. But they don't think about how that interacts with other policies that they are trying to put forward and how it interacts with the much bigger problem that is the affordability crisis. So it's really important to look at the big picture here. [14:21] Bryan Hyde: No, and that's— I think you're framing that in terms that most everybody should be able to relate to. There was a time, you know, where you would be proud to say, I went to Williams-Sonoma and I paid, you know, a boatload more for this pan than I probably should have. But not everybody has that option. And again, it's discouraging to hear that there are regulators who are working You know, so earnestly they can't take that into consideration. But it sounds like your organization does all that and more. For people who want to follow up and for that matter, reach out to learn more about the Taxpayers Protection Alliance, where's the best place to do that? [15:00] Ross Marchand: Our website, protectingtaxpayers.org. [15:03] Bryan Hyde: Okay. And they'll find that you guys really are busy in a number of different policy areas. Again, we're talking with Ross Marchant. He's executive director of the Taxpayers Protection Alliance. Ross, I'll be thinking about you as I'm cooking my meals over the next few days. Is there anything about cast iron? Is cast iron safe? [15:25] Ross Marchand: Well, let me put you this way. You may have to apply a little bit more pan spray. [15:31] Bryan Hyde: Okay. [15:32] Ross Marchand: But that's expensive. That's very expensive. [15:34] Bryan Hyde: We'll have to see if it has the warning label from California. [15:37] Ross Marchand: Yeah, it probably does. [15:39] Bryan Hyde: Again, Ross, thanks, thanks for joining us on the Health Policy Podcast. [15:42] Ross Marchand: Great to be back on your show.